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> Badania aDNA w Europie i na świecie
     
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post 11/04/2018, 13:32 Quote Post

Bylo o kotach, owcach, krowach, to teraz czas na cebule... wink.gif

QUOTE
A burnt onion more than 1,500 years old has shed new light on close trading links between the ancient ring fort dubbed 'Sweden's Pompeii' and the Roman Empire.

The ancient bulb found at Sandby Borg on the island of Öland shows that trade with Rome went far beyond the gold coins and jewellery previously found at the site, extending even to then exotic vegetables.

"What it means is that people on Öland imported food as well," Helena Victor, project leader for the excavation, told The Local.

"They didn't use onions in Scandinavia in cooking, but they did use them in the Roman Empire. I think it must have been imported. They probably saw it as some unique extra spice.”

The discovery was made near an old fireplace during the excavation of a house in the ring fort.

“It looked like a big nut or something and initially we couldn’t tell what it was,” Victor explained.

But after it was sent for analysis by Jens Heimdahl at The Swedish History Museum, it was identified as an onion, the oldest found yet in Scandinavia.

"An onion doesn't sound very interesting," Victor said. "But the previously oldest onion in Scandinavia was found on Bornholm and it was dated to 650 AD, and this onion was from the end of the fifth century, so it's almost 300 years older."

The settlement at Sandby Borg came to an abrupt end at the culmination of the fifth century when its inhabitants were massacred in what Victor describes as “a murder mystery story”.

"We are using forensic methods on the victims, because they are murder victims," she said. "We think it was the result of a civil war on the island."

Roman gold rings and coins discovered at the fort late last year could also be a motive.

"This discovery could help explain why the massacre took place – maybe these people had too much gold and jewellery," Victor told The Local at the time.

But she said the onion was more important for the evidence it provided of links with the Roman Empire, whose closest major settlement Noviomagus, now Nijmegen in the Netherlands, was more than 1,000 km away.

"We can see this direct link, again, with Europe and the Roman Empire. We find things all the time that show this link, but we haven’t seen it in food before," she said.


https://www.thelocal.se/20180411/ancient-on...swedens-pompeii

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Ten post był edytowany przez Radek8484: 11/04/2018, 13:37
 
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post 11/04/2018, 13:34 Quote Post

Było tez o rosole i pierogach:)
 
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post 11/04/2018, 13:39 Quote Post

QUOTE(mlukas @ 11/04/2018, 13:34)
Było tez o rosole i pierogach:)
*



No tak smile.gif A co myslicie o tej cebuli? Przywedrowala do Szwecji w V w. wraz z powracajacymi (uciekajacymi?) Gotami?

Ten post był edytowany przez Radek8484: 11/04/2018, 13:47
 
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post 11/04/2018, 14:01 Quote Post

.....

Ten post był edytowany przez mlukas: 11/04/2018, 14:08
 
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post 11/04/2018, 14:02 Quote Post

Zreszta DNA z Sandby borg jest analizowane...

"Projektet består av två delprojekt där det ena fokuserar på de arkeologiska utgrävningarna och på individernas historia genom DNA-analyser."

http://www.kalmarlansmuseum.se/site/assets...apport_webb.pdf
 
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post 11/04/2018, 14:06 Quote Post

A tu artykul sprzed kilku miesiecy...

QUOTE
The discovery of gold rings and coins on a Swedish island sheds new light on the history of the area, and could give insight into the motives for a massacre which took place in the fifth century, archaeologists told The Local on Wednesday.

The team working at Sandby Borg, a ringfort on Öland off Sweden's south-eastern coast, said the discovery was the "find of the year".

Archaeologists Clara Alfsdotter and Sophie Vallulv last week uncovered two rings and a coin, which confirm a theory that the island was in close contact with the Roman Empire. Close by, the team found pieces of Roman glass in an area which was once an important house.

The coin was made in honour of Western Roman Emperor Valentinian III, who ruled between 425 and 455. The emperor is depicted on one side of the coin, with his foot resting on the head of a barbarian – a common motif in coinage from the period. A similar coin commemorating Valentinian III was found three years ago.

The rings are equally interesting. Their size suggests they belonged to a woman, despite the fact none of the many skeletons found in the area have yet been identified as female.


"We haven't found treasure like this before, though we have found jewellery deposits," Helena Victor, the project leader, told The Local. "It's always exciting to find gold – the team will always remember this day. It's also important because we now know a lot more about the house where they were found. It seems to have had a special purpose, and it may have been the house of a chieftain or a minor king."

Victor said Sandby Borg is an exciting site for archaeologists, because of the large number of skeletons which cover the area and are thought to be victims of a fifth-century massacre. "The bodies are lying as they were left, so there were no burials and it's a moment frozen in time," Victor explained.

"This discovery could help explain why the massacre took place – maybe these people had too much gold and jewellery. Archaeology is all about finding out about people, with a very long-term perspective, so we can also compare these finds to violence we see nowadays, and use them to discuss for example why humans are so brutal and hateful," she added.


The discovery happened during the final week of this year's excavations in Sandby Borg, where Kalmar's county museum has organized digs each year since 2011.

Now, the rings and coin will be cleaned up by specialists and compared to those found in past digs on Öland, before being put on display in the museum's exhibition. Archaeologists were still working on the excavations on Wednesday, but Victor said they did not expect to strike gold again.


https://www.thelocal.se/20171011/gold-coin-...island-massacre

Ten post był edytowany przez Radek8484: 11/04/2018, 14:06
 
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post 11/04/2018, 14:08 Quote Post

QUOTE(Radek8484 @ 11/04/2018, 13:39)
QUOTE(mlukas @ 11/04/2018, 13:34)
Było tez o rosole i pierogach:)
*



No tak smile.gif A co myslicie o tej cebuli? Przywedrowala do Szwecji w V w. wraz z powracajacymi (uciekajacymi?) Gotami?
*


a przypomniałem sobie, coś na temat już tu pisałem. Przypomnę. Chodzi o nazwę cebuli w skandynawskich i wschodniosłowiańskich oraz południowosłowiańskich językach.

luk > lok > log > laukur

Zwróćcie uwagę, pozyczka z łaciny to nasza cebula, wystepuje tez w Niemczech, Czechach, Słowacji, Słowenii i Rumunii.

Luk > log to określenie niezależne.

user posted image



Albanian qepë

Basque tipula

Belarusian лук

Bosnian luk

Bulgarian лук

Catalan ceba

Croatian luk

Czech cibule

Danish løg

Dutch ui

Estonian sibul

Finnish sipuli

French oignon

Galician cebola

German Zwiebel

Greek κρεμμύδι(kremmýdi)

Hungarian hagyma

Icelandic Laukur

Irish oinniún

Italian cipolla

Latvian sīpols

Lithuanian svogūnas

Macedonian кромид

Maltese basla

Norwegian løk

Polish cebula

Portuguese cebola

Romanian ceapă

Russian лук(luk)

Serbian лук(luk)

Slovak Cibuľa

Slovenian čebula

Spanish cebolla

Swedish lök

Ukrainian цибуля(tsybulya)

Welsh nionyn


Czyli łotewski,estoński i fiński tez uzywają pożyczki z łaciny, musiało to do nich trafić za pośrednictwen Niemców widocznie, a nie Skandynawów. Chyba że przyszło z Polski ale to chyba za późno bo musiało to byc óxne średniowiecze.

Jest jeszcze onion (francuskie lub celtyckie).

Ten post był edytowany przez mlukas: 11/04/2018, 14:18
 
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post 11/04/2018, 14:12 Quote Post

Mamy luk > log > laukur (z germańskeigo lauka) w szwedzkim, duńskim, norweskim, islandzkim, rosyjskim, białoruskim, bułgarskim, serbskim, bosniackim, chorwackim (na mapce powyżej podane że wyszło to ze staro-cerkiewno-słowiańskiego). Zakładam że Ukraińcy przejęli od Polaków cebulę, na pewno tez był to pierwotnie luk.

Czyli związek z migracją Gotów jest...

Cebula a sprawa gocka hehe:) Co tam turbosy, zajadać cebulęsmile.gif Połozyć plaster słoniny by było bardziej swojsko...

Ten post był edytowany przez mlukas: 11/04/2018, 14:31
 
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post 11/04/2018, 14:29 Quote Post

smile.gif

http://www.languagesoftheworld.info/etymol...vocabulary.html
QUOTE
The third group of ‘onion’ words (shown in brown on the map), containing variation on luk, is found in North Germanic languages (Danish løg, Swedish lök, Norwegian løk, and Icelandic laukur), as well as in two of the East Slavic languages (Russian and Belarusian) and some South Slavic languages: Serbian, Croatian, and Bulgarian. In all of these languages, ‘onion’ is luk. The non-correlation of familial groupings and cognates for ‘onion’ is obvious here, with one of East Slavic languages (Ukrainian) and two of the South Slavic ones (Slovenian and Macedonian) being dissenters. Although Macedonian is most closely related to Bulgarian (so much so that many Bulgarian scholars deny it the status of a separate language altogether), its ‘onion’ word, kromid, is similar to the Greek kromion. The luk cognate set is said to derive from Proto-Germanic form *lauka– though it is not clear whether it referred to ‘onion’, or alternatively to ‘leek’ or even ‘garlic’. According to a renown etymologist Max Vasmer, who favored the Germanic superstratum theory for Slavic languages, the luk words in East Slavic languages derive from the linguistic influence of Varangians (Vikings), who opened trade routes in Russian lands in the 9th century and later established the ruling Rurik Dynasty. Since the same root is thought to have penetrated South Slavic languages via Old Church Slavonic, it is also possible that Russian (and thence Belarusian) got this word from Old Church Slavonic, alongside numerous other borrowings, including both learned and everyday words. Going back to Germanic, Old English had a related word, recorded as læc in Mercian dialect and leac in West Saxon, and it too was an umbrella term for ‘leek’, ‘onion’, and ‘garlic’; the Modern English word leek and the Modern German Lauch (also meaning ‘leek’) derive from that root, as does Dutch look meaning ‘leek’ or ‘garlic’. Speaking of garlic, this English word grew out of the same root. It is recorded for Old English as garleac (in Mercian dialect) and garlec (in West Saxon dialect), and is a compound of gar ‘spear’ and leac ‘leek’.


Dla mnie to raczej Goci a nie Waregowie rozprzestrzenili to, wpływ wareski na Bałkany byłby żaden przeciez.
Występowanie w staroangielskim słowa læc wyklucza pożyczkę w drugą stronę od Słowian

QUOTE
Another fascinating twist to the ‘onion’ story comes from Lithuanian. In earlier times, the cepa-related cibulis was used, but around 100 years ago it was replaced by svogūnas, a form that is unlike anything else seen in Balto-Slavic languages, or indeed any Indo-European languages in Europe. It appears to have been borrowed from Turkic languages: compare with the form sogan (with “g” in all Turkic forms pronounced as a velar fricative), found in Turkish, Azeri, Turkmen, Chuvash, Nogai, and Kumyk, as well as the Tatar sugan, Kirghiz sogon, Bashkir hugan, Balkar soxan and a score of other similar forms in other Turkic languages. However, it does not appear likely that Lithuanian borrowed directly from a Turkic tongue; rather it is probable that Finno-Ugric languages spoken in the heartland of Russia served as an intermediary. As pointed out above, Finnish, Estonian, and Hungarian all have unrelated words, but sogan-like forms are found in Komi-Permyak (sugon’ ‘onion’) and other Finno-Ugric languages of the region.


To ci historia:)

QUOTE
Latvian, one of two Baltic languages (which are usually analyzed as most closely related to the Slavic grouping), also features a cepa-cognate, sīpols, while its closest relative, Lithuanian, had a similar word until early 20th century (we will return to Lithuanian below). North of Latvian, Estonian and Finnish—both members of the Finno-Ugric family—too have borrowed the same root (their respective words are sibul and sipuli). (Note that another Finno-Ugric language in Europe, Hungarian, uses a completely unrelated word, hagyma, for ‘onion.)


Dodatkowo można dodać gdyby luk pochodziło ze słowiańskiego dziwił by brak podobnych słów bałtyckich i fińskich bo te ludy musiały by zapozyczyć to od Słowian.

Ten post był edytowany przez mlukas: 11/04/2018, 15:53
 
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post 11/04/2018, 15:07 Quote Post

https://sverigesradio.se/sida/artikel.aspx?...artikel=6928448

QUOTE
The rich settlement of Sandby Borg was suddenly annihilated 1,500 years ago, and now the researchers working on the dig have got a better idea of what happened.

Helena Victor, archaeologist at Kalmar County Museum and head of the project, thinks it is no accident that this attack on the Baltic island of Öland happened at the same time as the fall of the Western Roman Empire and the invasions and migrations from the East.

The people of this area had benefited from trading with Romans, maybe serving in the imperial armed forces, but that connection with the rich south was disrupted.

The injuries inflicted on the skeletons can also tell us a lot about what happened and why, says archaeologist and osteologist Clara Alfsdotter.


Z wywiadu m.in..."The well-aimed lethal blows suggest a large group of professionals carried out this attack with swords and axes (...) And another question that's being pondered is 'Where are the women?' So far, only the dead children and men had been found (...)"

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post 11/04/2018, 15:52 Quote Post

QUOTE(Radek8484 @ 11/04/2018, 15:07)


Z wywiadu m.in..."The well-aimed lethal blows suggest a large group of professionals carried out this attack with swords and axes (...) And another question that's being pondered is 'Where are the women?' So far, only the dead children and men had been found (...)"
*


Sprzedali za cebulęsmile.gif
 
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post 11/04/2018, 22:56 Quote Post

Zmiana tematu na powazniejszy:)

Reich udostepnił genomy ze starożyentje Azji Centralnej.
Bardzo ciekawy genom z Iranu epoki brązu I4243 Haji_Firuz_BA.
Wyraźne wpływy komponentów stricte europejskich oraz silne wpływ Kaukazu. Jedynie 14,47% komponentu South-Central Asian.

nr na Gedmatch Z063604


wyniki K36 Eurogenes

Armenian 1.87
Central_Euro 4.12
East_Balkan 1.95
East_Central_Euro 4.10
East_Med 1.73
Eastern_Euro 6.66
Fennoscandian 5.64
French 1.90
North_Atlantic 7.17
North_Caucasian 32.68
North_Sea 10.90
South_Central_Asian 14.47
West_Caucasian 6.81


wyniki w Global 25 Davidskiego
[1] "distance%=2.8761 / distance=0.028761"

"Yamnaya_Samara" 56.1
"Hajji_Firuz_ChL" 43.9




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post 12/04/2018, 8:55 Quote Post

O cebuli już było. I warto dodać do tego czosnek, gdyż razem z porem były w "pakiecie". Na czosnek Serbowie mówią biały luk. Prawdopodobnie wszyscy Słowianie mówili luk a później nadano czosnkowi własną nazwę - jeszcze w czasach jerów co ładnie pokazuje różnica w wymowie.Być może przodkowie Serbów już się na te słówko nie załapali gdyż byli w drodze na południe. Nasza cebula może być późniejszym zapożyczeniem.

Istotny dowód w tej sprawie znalazł Kmat. W jakiejś biblii kaszubskiej wytropił określenie łuczek na pora.

W każdym razie te wszystkie słówka układają się w ładną całość.

 
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post 12/04/2018, 14:14 Quote Post

QUOTE(Lilla Weneda @ 12/04/2018, 8:55)
O cebuli już było. I warto dodać do tego czosnek, gdyż razem z porem były w "pakiecie". Na czosnek Serbowie mówią biały luk. Prawdopodobnie wszyscy Słowianie mówili luk a później nadano czosnkowi własną nazwę - jeszcze w czasach jerów co ładnie pokazuje różnica w wymowie.Być może przodkowie Serbów już się na te słówko nie załapali gdyż byli w drodze na południe. Nasza cebula może być późniejszym zapożyczeniem.

Istotny dowód w tej sprawie znalazł Kmat. W jakiejś biblii kaszubskiej wytropił określenie łuczek na pora.

W każdym razie te wszystkie słówka układają się w ładną całość.
*



W kaszubskim jest łëczk na określenie szczypiorku, czy to na część cebuli czy to na czosnek szczypiorek.
 
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post 12/04/2018, 20:20 Quote Post

QUOTE(mlukas @ 11/04/2018, 13:01)
Dokładnie! Dla mnie to nie są wykluczające się warianty ale wszystkie trzy sa prawdziwe, tym bardziej że występowały w różnych epokach.
Wszystko to widać w porównaniach autosomalnych współczesnych Brytyjczyków. Sam kiedys myślałem że płd-wsch Anglia to niemal tacy sami Germanie jak Fryzowie czy mieszkańcy Szlezwiku, ale jednak nie.


A nie mówiłem ??? - https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?858...0930#post190930

Ten post był edytowany przez Domen: 12/04/2018, 20:27
 
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