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> Borders of the Holy Roman Empire in the 1200s, Included Silesia/Pomeria/Lebus/Prussia ?
     
Domen
 

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post 30/05/2018, 13:41 Quote Post

Is this map from Wikipedia correct, did Silesia, Pomerania, Land Lebus, Kulmerland and part of Prussia belong to the HRE ca. years 1200-1250?:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holy_Roman_Empire

user posted imageuser posted image

It seems to be based on this 19th century German map ("Mitteleuropa zur zeit der Staufen" from Allgemeiner Historischer Handatlas, 1886):

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Mit...der_Staufer.svg

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/comm...Droysens-26.jpg

Discussion in Polish about it: http://www.historycy.org/index.php?showtopic=173759

English translation: http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=&...73759&sandbox=1

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In my opinion that map is wrong. Lands of the Teutonic Order never belonged to the HRE.

Moreover, Silesia and most of Land Lebus became parts of the HRE only during the 1300s:

user posted image

And Polish Pomerelia (Eastern Pomerania) was captured by Teutonic Knights only in 1308-1309.

This is what Pope Clement V wrote about the Teutonic conquest of the city of Gdańsk in 1308:

"Novissime vero ad nostrum pervenit auditum, quod dicti praeceptores et fratres hospitalis eiusdem dilecti filii nobilis viri Wladislai Cracovie et Sandomirie ducis terram hostiliter subintrantes in civitate Gdansco ultra decem milia hominum gladio peremerunt infantibus vagientibus in cunis mortis exitum inferentes, quibus etiam hostis fidei pepercisset. (...) Gravem dilecti nobilis viri Wladislai ducis Polonie querelam accepimus, continentem, quod magister et fratres domus s. Marie Theutonicorum non attendentes, quod quondam Conradus dux Polonie avus eiusdem ducis eosdem magistrum et fratres, quos veros credebat katholice fidei defensores, ad partes illas pro defensione ipsius fidei primitus advocavit et nonnula inmobilia et mobilia bona liberaliter concessit eisdem, alias eos dictus Conradus et successors sui benigne ac favorabiliter prosequendo; sed ipsi dicto duci se reddentes ingratos et ad bona ipsius rapacitatis manus extendentes, illicite ducem ipsum terra sua Pomoranie Wladislauiensis dyocesis, que de regno Polonie fore dinoscitur temeritate propria spoliantes, illam cum hominibus, vasallis, castris, villis, possessionibus et bonis existentibus in eadem contra iusticiam occuparunt et detinuerunt iam per octo annos et amplius sicut adhuc detinent violenter, fructus ac redditus et proventus provenientes ex illa percipientes indebite et iniuste, illam sibi reddere contradicu-nt in ipsius ducis grave dispendium et regni predicti diminucionem enormem et scandalum manifestum."

Translation to English:

"It has recently come to our attention that the said preceptors and brothers of the same hospital [Order], stealing into the land of our dear son, the nobleman Duke Vladislav of Cracow and Sandomir, in a hostile manner, killed more than 10,000 people in the city of Gdansco by the sword, inflicting death upon infants crying in their cradles, whom even the enemies of the faith would have spared. (...) We accepted the serious complaint of our dear son, the nobleman Duke Vladislav of Poland, the master and brothers of the Teutonic Order not being present, maintaining that the late Duke Conrad of Poland, grandfather of the same duke, first called the master and brothers, whom he believed true defenders of the Catholic faith, and he freely conceded to them some movable and immovable goods, and the said Conrad and his successors with benign favour followed these up with others. But, showing no gratitude to the said duke and extending the hands of rapacity towards his goods, they [the Teutonic Knights] boldly and illicitily robbed that duke of his own land of Pomerania, of the diocese of Włocławek, which it is known should belong to the kingdom of Poland, along with the men, vassals, castles, villages, possessions, and goods in it, now occupying and detaining it against justice for eight years and more still violently detaining its fruits and revenues and produce wtihout right and unjustly, they refuse to return it to him at great cost to the duke himself and immense damage to the aforesaid kingdom [Poland] and in manifest scandal."

This You Tube video in my opinion correctly shows the territorial evolution of the HRE during the 1200s:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l3it0qKZPh8#t=2m30s

user posted image

^^^
Only Western Pomerania belonged to the HRE at that time. And excluding the Land of Sławno (Schlawe):

https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pommerellen

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/comm...275-1300%29.png

Ten post był edytowany przez Domen: 30/05/2018, 14:26
 
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post 30/05/2018, 14:05 Quote Post

Based on my knowledge (I thought it was common knowledge - "manifestum non eget probatione"):

1) West Pomerania became part of the HRE in 1181-1227 (1181 = Bogislaw I pledged allegiance to the Emperor, 1227 = battle of Bornhöved):
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bogusław_I,_Duke_of_Pomerania
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Bor..._(1227)#Results
2) Most of Silesia became part of the Czech Crown (and therefore also of the HRE) only during the 1300s.
3) Land Lebus became part of Brandenburg (so the HRE) only since 1249 onwards (see maps of expansion of Brandenburg east of the Oder):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bkQ-wptfbGI
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lubusz_Land#Kingdom_of_Poland
4) Kulmerland (given to the Teutonic Order by Konrad of Mazovia) and Prussia were never parts of the HRE, only of Teutonic State.
5) Pomerelia (Pommerellen) was Polish until 1308-1309, when it was captured by Teutonic Knights. But it was never in the HRE.
6) Generally lands of the Teutonic Order were NOT part of the HRE, they were directly subordinated to the Pope, not the Emperor.

Ten post był edytowany przez Domen: 30/05/2018, 14:26
 
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post 31/05/2018, 15:08 Quote Post

https://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C5%9Awi%C4%9...arstwo_Rzymskie

user posted image
 
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