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> Bandera's Holocaust, Because of Poles fault ?
     
Stolem
 

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post 22/11/2014, 20:26 Quote Post

QUOTE(Paweł Gajtkowski @ 22/11/2014, 13:16)
Let me rephrase biblical proverb, if it's too religious for You: "They that sow the seeds of ethnical and religious animosity, shall reap real trouble during future military conflicts".


The onus is on you to prove that the reason for Volhynian genocide committed by fascist OUN/UPA was the demolition of some Orthodox churches (according this page http://www.cerkiew1938.pl/rezultaty_akcji_...nia_cerkwi.html the number was 127, so much smaller than 400 you so happily throw around). So elucidate.

@Phouty

You can find a discussion about the 1938 Orthodox churches demolition action here:
http://www.historycy.org/index.php?showtopic=21551
and supporting discussion on the ethnic and land ownership relations in "Kresy" here.

http://www.historycy.org/index.php?showtop...280&mode=linear

Posts of arnold are highly recommended. He was the forum guru on demographics before he stopped posting here.
In one of the posts (not sure if in one of those threads mentioned above) he wrote that in some cases the descendants of Poles converted by force to Orthodox Christianity during the Russian rule in 19th century became so Ukrainized that they participated in Volhynian genocide.


@Alexander Malinowski2
QUOTE
From this perspective the action of 1938 seems as fighting the XIX-century war in XX-century.

The methods were successful to a large extent when applied by Russian Empire in the same area, it is not possible to say whether they would be successful without W2W and no change in the borders of Poland.

Ten post był edytowany przez Stolem: 23/11/2014, 0:34
 
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Paweł Gajtkowski
 

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post 22/11/2014, 23:50 Quote Post

QUOTE(Stolem @ 22/11/2014, 20:26)

(according this page http://www.cerkiew1938.pl/rezultaty_akcji_...nia_cerkwi.html the number was 127, so much smaller than 400 you so happily throw around). So  elucidate.


According to this page:

http://www.cerkiew1938.pl/relacje_ani_guzika.html

QUOTE
W Ziemi Chełmskiej zburzono około czterystu cerkwi. U konserwatora wojewódzkiego w Lublinie, prof. Dutkiewicza, duży pusty pokój obok jego biura zawalony był ikonami, rzeźbami, rajskimi wrotami, przeważnie nadłamanymi, uszkodzonymi.


And here is my little bit of elucidation: I don't have to prove anything. Musij asked us a simple question:

QUOTE
Didnt you think that "Holocaust po banderowsku" was a fault of your own?


So i wrote him what I think. That's what my grandfather thought too, when he saw the whole rip-their-churches-apart bussines happen and he was - guess what - 100% Polish Catholic.

 
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Stolem
 

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post 23/11/2014, 0:02 Quote Post

QUOTE(Paweł Gajtkowski @ 22/11/2014, 22:50)
QUOTE(Stolem @ 22/11/2014, 20:26)

(according this page http://www.cerkiew1938.pl/rezultaty_akcji_...nia_cerkwi.html the number was 127, so much smaller than 400 you so happily throw around). So  elucidate.


According to this page:

http://www.cerkiew1938.pl/relacje_ani_guzika.html

QUOTE
W Ziemi Chełmskiej zburzono około czterystu cerkwi. U konserwatora wojewódzkiego w Lublinie, prof. Dutkiewicza, duży pusty pokój obok jego biura zawalony był ikonami, rzeźbami, rajskimi wrotami, przeważnie nadłamanymi, uszkodzonymi.




So you base your number on a piece of memoirs not on the official documents. The www.cerkiew1938.pl was created by the Orthodox Church in Poland, so they would have all the reasons to present a high numbers of demolished churches. If they claim a lower number and you pick up a much higher number it proves your ideological bent and no interest in fact seeking.

QUOTE
And here is my little bit of elucidation: I don't have to prove anything. Musij asked us a simple question:

QUOTE
Didnt you think that "Holocaust po banderowsku" was a fault of your own?


So i wrote him what I think. That's what my grandfather thought too, when he saw the whole rip-their-churches-apart bussines happen and he was - guess what - 100% Polish Catholic.
*



You think so but you cannot defend your position with any arguments. Thank you for letting us know.
BTW, the Polish Catholic Church was created only in 1951.

Ten post był edytowany przez Stolem: 23/11/2014, 0:14
 
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post 23/11/2014, 0:37 Quote Post

QUOTE(Paweł Gajtkowski @ 22/11/2014, 18:57)
My grandfather was old enough to see on his own eyes tserkov building being torn down by the Poles. Too bad I've learned about this from my father when it was too late to hear any detailed description from the eye-witness.

I'm not a historian, Alexander Malinowski2, but I have a feeling that you are. So, can you list the commanders of UPA that didn't knew about desacration of 400 (!) Eastern Orthodox churches?
*



The problem of the desacralization and demolition of some orthodox churches in the late 1930's is more complicated than You have written. I think the action was cruel and barbarian in fact, but - first of all, the demolished churches had been illegally used by the Orthodox Church. Secondly, the political programme of OUN and its attitude towards Poland and Poles took shape earlier than late 1930's.
 
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Paweł Gajtkowski
 

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post 23/11/2014, 0:47 Quote Post

I wonder how can you possibly prove that the level of anti-Polonism among Ukrainians had nothing to do with desecrating 100/400 (sources vary, as it seems) Eastern Orthodox Churches. Well... you just can't. So I can't prove I'm right, just as well as you can't prove I'm wrong.
 
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post 23/11/2014, 0:57 Quote Post

But if you think, that the demolishing had something to do with Ukrainian level of antipolonism, you must prove that. The programme of "Ukraine without Strangers" is clearly earlier than the Polish government (local administration and military in fact) action.
 
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Stolem
 

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post 23/11/2014, 0:57 Quote Post

QUOTE(Paweł Gajtkowski @ 22/11/2014, 23:47)
I wonder how can you possibly prove that the level of anti-Polonism among Ukrainians had nothing to do with desecrating 100/400 (sources vary, as it seems) Eastern Orthodox Churches. Well... you just can't. So I can't prove I'm right, just as well as you can't prove I'm wrong.
*


You put your opinion here, you defend it here. I do not have to prove anything.
So now prove what you "think":that "Bandera's Holocaust" was Poles fault and stop using weasel words. Alternatively just stop writing about this topic.

Ten post był edytowany przez Stolem: 23/11/2014, 0:58
 
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post 24/11/2014, 3:18 Quote Post

QUOTE(szapur II @ 22/11/2014, 15:37)
[... but -  first of all, the demolished churches had been illegally used by the Orthodox Church.
*



Excuse my simple mind. Could you please elaborate on the meaning of the expression "illegally used"? What does it mean?
I don't comprehend what had been the possible legal mechanism causing the church, or a tserkov for that matter being "illegally used"? You mean the usage of the building by the people by itself, or just a fact of local folks congregating somewhere to exercise their religious rites?

To be honest (I must admit), that I don't like the way our discussion is heading.

So called "proofs" requested by some users from the others in this topic won't solve anything.
What is to be proven?
The fact, that most of such type of ethnic conflicts have been in existence for many hundred of years, and any party to them is pointing the finger at their adversaries and is saying: "It's your fault"!
I simply (as an impartial observer) see the most participants in such discussions are digging in themselves in their already existing positions without a smallest bit of good intentions to listen to the opinions of the opposite side.

Looking at many conflicts between particular nations and/or religions say...Turks-Armenians, Turks-Greeks, Serbs-Albanians (Croats and Bosnians among them too), or as most recent example of Russians and Ukrainians explicitly show us, that none of them is willing to solve it in a peaceful, or at least in a civilized way, but any 'discussions' lead more often than not to a next round of a blood-letting, where the victims are those, which are the recent underdogs, despite the fact, that today's victims might have been yesterday's oppressors!

This particular discussion also follows that pattern, less blood-letting of course, but the emotional background is virtually close to a 'boiling point of blood' as seen in the posts of some participants.

I consider the fact of rising down, or tearing apart tserkovs in an organized way by Polish authorities as a proverbial 'additional drop in the bucket', and much less important was/is, whether 100 or 400 structures were demolished. Even only one it would be one too many, taking into account particular circumstances of those events.

Made quick search on Google and found interesting article dated 9 September 1944, showing the point of view of 'the other side'.
(Scroll down to page no. 4).
http://ukrweekly.com/archive/pdf1/1944/The...kly_1944-35.pdf

However let's not forget about a background events happening practically at the same time on the other side of the Polish-Russian border.
http://monderusse.revues.org/92?file=1

Interesting is also a post no. 12 by user Konstanthinos, unfortunately without disclosing the sources of quoted informations.
http://www.historycy.org/index.php?showtopic=21551

EDIT
One more interesting article.
http://www.biblicalstudies.org.uk/pdf/rcl/14-3_244.pdf

Ten post był edytowany przez Phouty: 24/11/2014, 3:47
 
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post 24/11/2014, 21:47 Quote Post

CODE
[quote=Phouty,24/11/2014, 4:18]



CODE
Excuse my simple mind. Could you please elaborate on the meaning of the expression "illegally used"? What does it mean?
I don't comprehend what had been the possible legal mechanism causing the church, or a tserkov for that matter being "illegally used"? You mean the usage of the building by the people by itself, or just a fact of local folks congregating somewhere to exercise their religious rites?


Poland is not USA and there has never been separation of the Church and State. Therefore the conflict between the different Churches had to be resolved by the state.

The problem was caused by the perception that the religious faith of some peasants in Kholm province is problem of the security of the state. And the main cause was the fact, that Ukrainians contested the borders of Poland.

Most of the problems of interwar Poland was caused by decision of USA to abandon Europe, including the states created on insistence of president Wilson i.e. Poland.

Moreover, the economic policy of USA had been murderous to outer world and made Poles and Ukrainians to starve.
In this context, considering the wrongdoings of Polish authorities without cause, which was policy of USA, is one sided.

CODE
Looking at many conflicts between particular nations and/or religions say...Turks-Armenians, Turks-Greeks, Serbs-Albanians (Croats and Bosnians among them too), or as most recent example of Russians and Ukrainians explicitly show us, that none of them is willing to solve it in a peaceful, or at least in a civilized way, but any 'discussions' lead more often than not to a next round of a blood-letting, where the victims are those, which are the recent underdogs, despite the fact, that today's victims might have been yesterday's oppressors!


It is easy generalization, which is not true. For example, there is no conflict between Russians and Ukrainians, but between Putin and Ukraine.

CODE
I consider the fact of rising down, or tearing apart tserkovs in an organized way by Polish authorities as a proverbial 'additional drop in the bucket', and much less important was/is, whether 100 or 400 structures were demolished. Even only one it would be one too many, taking into account particular circumstances of those events.


Soviets killed Ukrainians in thousands and nobody was burning the village populated by soviets. Taking into account that the conflict was finally solved by deportation of few hundred thousand Ukrainians to USSR, where they starved to death and resettlement of others to Western Poland, I do not see the Polish policies as too hard.

They were stupid or maybe too light to solve the problem.



 
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post 25/11/2014, 2:16 Quote Post

QUOTE(Alexander Malinowski2 @ 24/11/2014, 12:47)
CODE
[quote=Phouty,24/11/2014, 4:18]



CODE
Excuse my simple mind. Could you please elaborate on the meaning of the expression "illegally used"? What does it mean?
I don't comprehend what had been the possible legal mechanism causing the church, or a tserkov for that matter being "illegally used"? You mean the usage of the building by the people by itself, or just a fact of local folks congregating somewhere to exercise their religious rites?


Poland is not USA and there has never been separation of the Church and State. Therefore the conflict between the different Churches had to be resolved by the state.

The problem was caused by the perception that the religious faith of some peasants in Kholm province is problem of the security of the state. And the main cause was the fact, that Ukrainians contested the borders of Poland.

Most of the problems of interwar Poland was caused by decision of USA to abandon Europe, including the states created on insistence of president Wilson i.e. Poland.

Moreover, the economic policy of USA had been murderous to outer world and made Poles and Ukrainians to starve.
In this context, considering the wrongdoings of Polish authorities without cause, which was policy of USA, is one sided.

CODE
Looking at many conflicts between particular nations and/or religions say...Turks-Armenians, Turks-Greeks, Serbs-Albanians (Croats and Bosnians among them too), or as most recent example of Russians and Ukrainians explicitly show us, that none of them is willing to solve it in a peaceful, or at least in a civilized way, but any 'discussions' lead more often than not to a next round of a blood-letting, where the victims are those, which are the recent underdogs, despite the fact, that today's victims might have been yesterday's oppressors!


It is easy generalization, which is not true. For example, there is no conflict between Russians and Ukrainians, but between Putin and Ukraine.

CODE
I consider the fact of rising down, or tearing apart tserkovs in an organized way by Polish authorities as a proverbial 'additional drop in the bucket', and much less important was/is, whether 100 or 400 structures were demolished. Even only one it would be one too many, taking into account particular circumstances of those events.


Soviets killed Ukrainians in thousands and nobody was burning the village populated by soviets. Taking into account that the conflict was finally solved by deportation of few hundred thousand Ukrainians to USSR, where they starved to death and resettlement of others to Western Poland, I do not see the Polish policies as too hard.

They were stupid or maybe too light to solve the problem.
*



In other words are you implying, that religious persecution of Orthodox Church in Poland as it clearly was, could be explained away by some sort of a "conflict of the churches" in which the authorities simply took side of one of them?
I would call it by its name, namely the religious persecution of certain minorities by the dominant ethnic group in then Polish state..
But on the other hand lets us dwell on the issue for a little bit more.

Okay, let's temporarily assume such a situation of "conflict of the churches" (your own expression), but then we've got to deal with the emerging question why the government sided with one, and not the other church?
Was the Catholic Church somehow oppressed at that period of time by the Ukrainians in the region of Kholm?

I've never heard of such events, but maybe I'm wrong?
What would be your explanation of one sided dealing in that matter?

Okay...maybe the example of a recent conflict in Ukraine is not the best one 'for today', but undoubtedly it will create many reasons for mutual distrust and some sort of hatred between portions of their population in the future.

Shouldn't we search for the roots of Polish-Ukrainian conflict in the deep past, say dating from 3 or 4 hundred years before?

Slight off topic:
With a huge amazement I've read your 'American connection' to the subject.
Based on that what one might assume, that if USA allowed to starve millions of its own citizens while somehow (question is how?) helping to prevent starvation in Ukraine, it might have been okay.

Nice to hear that USA was responsible for Soviet, Polish, Ukrainian, and God knows who else own problems!

Mother Teresa wasn't even a noon then, so obviously those ugly Yanks didn't know how to react to protect those poor souls, therefore it's their very own fault!

Bravo!!!
Have you heard of the fact, that Wilson lost presidential elections, 'cause candidate Warren Harding had run on the ticket of isolationism and he, not Wilson won the elections?

Have you also heard of Fordney-McCumber Tariff Act?

Please, don't rewrite a history, which is completely unrelated to events discussed in this topic!

Question:
Could you list at least one benefit and/or reason, which USA might have had from engaging the little known, and barely in existence, ill defined and unpredictable nation in some God-forgotten corner of the central-eastern Europe, as an exception to its global policy of isolationism?

At least one reason, which would benefit USA!
 
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Alexander Malinowski2
 

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post 25/11/2014, 7:54 Quote Post

CODE
[quote=Phouty,25/11/2014, 3:16]



CODE
Okay, let's temporarily assume such a situation of "conflict of the churches" (your own expression), but then we've got to deal with the emerging question [b]why[/b] the government sided with one, and not the other church?
Was the Catholic Church somehow oppressed at that period of time by the Ukrainians in the region of Kholm?


The Catholic Church was obviously persecuted in Tsars Russia. Yes, the state took side of the Catholic Church.
Poland even now is acting between churches, but as far as I am concerned, after 1989 the state acted as fair broker and Orthodox church has not been harmed.

But the obvious difference between times after 1989 and 1921 lies in the obvious facts that the borders of Poland after 1989 are stable and recognized. And the minorities just emerged after generations of persecutions, so they are more grateful for each act of generosity.

CODE
Slight off topic:
With a huge amazement I've read your 'American connection' to the subject.
Based on that what one might assume, that if USA allowed to starve millions of its own citizens while somehow (question is how?) helping to prevent starvation in Ukraine, it might have been okay.

Nice to hear that USA was responsible for Soviet, Polish, Ukrainian, and God knows who else own problems!


Never heard that US intervened in the WWI?
If you intervene in war, the obvious reason is you have some opinion about the peace terms?

When you implement the peace terms of your wish, would like the order to be overthrown in the next 10 years?

The correct answer is:
USA intervened in WW1 and demanded independent Poland. But following Wilson defeat withdraw support for Poland, which is like intervening in Iraq following by Caliphate take over.

CODE
Bravo!!!
Have you heard of the fact, that Wilson lost presidential elections, 'cause candidate Warren Harding had run on the ticket of isolationism and he, not Wilson won the elections?


Folly on side of American electors.

CODE
Have you also heard of Fordney-McCumber Tariff Act?


I am not sure, is it protectionist tariff, which bleed Europe almost to death combined with the demand on return of the war debts?

You completely forgot to mention that A. Hitler rise to power was somehow related to American caused the Great Depression.

CODE
Please, don't rewrite a history, which is completely unrelated to events discussed in this topic!


Little support, little trade, little $ and there would have been no ethnic conflicts in Eastern Europe.



CODE
Question:
Could you list at least one benefit and/or reason, which USA might have had from engaging the little known, and barely in existence, ill defined and unpredictable nation in some God-forgotten corner of the central-eastern Europe, as an exception to its global policy of isolationism?


Prevention of the WW2.

CODE
At least one reason, which would benefit USA!


Without WW2 USA would not develop its economy based on the war expenses and would have not dominated the planet.

USA had more options: it could also withdraw after WW2 and then defend fortress America. All points apply to post WW2 situation in the same way as to post WW1 situation.
 
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post 25/11/2014, 11:25 Quote Post

CODE
Phouty:
Excuse my simple mind. Could you please elaborate on the meaning of the expression "illegally used"? What does it mean?

This is a question of great importance. The polish action of the Orthodox Churchbuildings' destruction was carried on in the area of "Województwo Lubelskie", to be more accurate, in Chełmszczyzna. What does the expression "illegally used" mean? This churches had been desoleted since 1875, when the Russian - tsarist government banned the Greek Catholic Church in the territory of Congress Kingdom. Development of religious - national situation in Chełmszczyzna caused that several Greek Catholic Churchbuildings remained abandoned until the 1920s and the 1930s, when several of the churches were lawlessly taken by some Orthodox Priests to erect new parishes without the approval of the relevant authorities.
 
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post 26/11/2014, 0:14 Quote Post

QUOTE(Alexander Malinowski2 @ 24/11/2014, 22:54)
CODE
[quote=Phouty,25/11/2014, 3:16]

Never heard that US intervened in the WWI?
If you intervene in war, the obvious reason is you have some opinion about the peace terms?

When you implement the peace terms of your wish, would like the order to be overthrown in the next 10 years?
*



You're kiddin' me, right?

Most ridiculous statement about American politics I've ever heard!
In other words you completely confuse typical tactical promises of a politician trying to gather some internal support among his potential voters with some sort of 'obligations', taken Out of what? Out of...your own imagination?

Quote:
" Wilson expressed confusion towards the gratitude received from The Provisional Council of State in the Kingdom of Poland, the government created by the Central Powers to manage Poland until “the future state” of Poland was to be formed."

Source:
http://www.historynut.info/wilson/page5.html

The fact is, that the Poles had terribly overblown their unwarranted expectations and virtually they'd hung their beliefs on a quite uncommitted statement from some presidential speech, which is known nowadays as a "Peace Without Victory" speech, and couldn't have created any formal obligations on the part of USA, especially when at that particular time the US Congress, and many politicians along with a majority of the population were against it!
An Wilson's head had to roll down during the next elections. And rollin' down it had!
So he paid the price for his own folly, not the American nation, because the the next decade called "Roaring Twenties" was characterized by unusual outgrow of American prosperity, caused among the others by adoption of isolationism as a national policy, having virtually a full national consensus and popular support!

Yankees live for themselves, and not for the others, and such a statement is also true for any other given nation of this world!!!
It's called national identity, for a Christ sake!

The fact is, that it was the Poles themselves, who through their national hedonism and unbelievable stupidity of their ruling classes, were able to roll quickly down from the heights of being a local power, to a non-existent status within just few short decades.
And now self-professed 'gurus', ill informed 'revisionists', or simply some chauvinists, try to imply some sort of alleged 'responsibility' for their own national misfortunes by the others.
It's almost like a national Polish policy and tradition blame everyone and everything but themselves for their whole history of misfortunes and national decomposition.
Really a nation of permanent victims. How laughable!

And even nowadays they have unbelievable audacity to request in a quite obnoxious way from the others to support them, and to put them on a pedestal of world's elite, without giving anything to the world's community in return. Just a bunch of regular free-rollers, and little dodgers.
Parrots and peacocks, all it is of 'em! (As stated even by their own national bards).

So Alexander!
Show me please, and justify in scientific manner at least one document making formal US guarantees to (then) non-existent Polish state, in a form of formal treaty signed, and most importantly, ratified by the US Congress, making it effectively a "law of the land".
You seem to forget, that USA is a nation of well defined constitutional laws, and without Congressional ratification any 'promises' are as good, and as valid as the proverbial snowstorm several years ago.
Don't feed that BS here, therefore creating a permanent record of stupidity, which could be read and understood by a majority of the world's population, creating a "full in a clown's hat" out of yourself and out of yourselves for everyone to see!
It would be only you, who might be forced to bite your own foot in the future, and no one else!

Get life...and please, do not write your own interpretation of someone's else history especially, when neither you in person, nor you as entire nation couldn't claim any merits, and for the past couple of centuries you've been always dependent of good will of others, for whom you'd never expressed any signs of gratitude, but only you'd been able to complain and to offend your benefactors, supporters, or even protectors.

Ten post był edytowany przez Phouty: 26/11/2014, 0:40
 
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post 26/11/2014, 0:38 Quote Post

Nobody gives here a damn for US Constitution and the obvious reason for it is the evolution of the constitutional practice in the 20th and 21st century, which practically made US presidential republic.
The US had sent the large army over the ocean, the army, which in practical therms had had decided the results of WW1.
The very fact that the Congress had failed to communicate the targets of US in the war, and it was US president, who had taken over this role, only illustrated the beginning of the shift in real power in US.
The step back, which had been the defeat of Wilson and the following period of isolationism, did't change the direction of the process.

Nobody sends million soldiers few thousands miles away and then forgets about the results.

Poland exists because of the support of US to its independence.


QUOTE(Phouty @ 26/11/2014, 1:14)

Show me please, and justify in scientific manner at least one document making formal US  guarantees to (then) non-existent Polish state, in a form of formal treaty signed, and most importantly, ratified by the US Congress, making it effectively a "law of the land".
You seem to forget, that USA is a nation of well defined constitutional laws, and without Congressional ratification any 'promises' are as good, and as valid as the proverbial snowstorm several years ago.


 
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post 26/11/2014, 0:58 Quote Post

Here we go...typical Polish chauvinistic talk, which no one in the civilized world buys, but everyone simply laughs at. And laughs it does!
Just some smoke and mirrors, "to uplift the national spirit", as we know from Polish literature written by the famous author while in exile, but enjoying a good time at the expenses of his foreign hosts.

 
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