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> Bandera's Holocaust, Because of Poles fault ?
     
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post 13/06/2014, 13:42 Quote Post

QUOTE(Musij @ 26/07/2011, 19:12)
hello
i have a question to poles. Didnt you think that "Holocaust po banderowsku" was a fault of your own?
P.S.
I'm not banderivec. sorry for bad english smile.gif
*


Yeah, right, it's Polish fault. In the same way, that holocaust was Jewish fault- because they were there...

Ten post był edytowany przez emigrant: 13/06/2014, 13:43
 
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Paweł Gajtkowski
 

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post 21/11/2014, 19:43 Quote Post

While nothing can justify genocide, the Sanation government was directly responsible for stirring up unrest among Ukrainian people, so the Poles are not as squeaky-clean as they think they are... I would advise some of my fellow forum members to read something like: Tadeusz Chrzanowski, Poblask łun, "Tygodnik Powszechny", 1981, nr 38, s. 5. Short excerpt for Polish readers can be found here:

Poblask łun
 
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post 21/11/2014, 20:15 Quote Post

More I read about the political situation in the Eastern Poland more is clear to me that the political extremism came as ideological imports from the neighboring totalitarian states: Germany and Soviet Union. The very idea of slaughter of civilians had nothing to do with policies of governments of interwar Poland.
Opposite is true: Polish government lead very light policies. Only more violent policies might have prevented the terrorists.
 
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post 21/11/2014, 21:10 Quote Post

QUOTE(Paweł Gajtkowski @ 21/11/2014, 19:43)
While nothing can justify genocide, the Sanation government was directly responsible for stirring up unrest among Ukrainian people, so the Poles are not as squeaky-clean as they think they are...

Who was being slaugtered by Bandera's men? Polish goverment or men, women and chidren whose only fault was that they were there?
Are you fan of collective responsibility?
Besides- how many Ukrainian children and women were tortured to death in most atrocious manners known and unknown to mankind by Polish government forces between the Wars?

Ten post był edytowany przez emigrant: 21/11/2014, 23:42
 
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post 22/11/2014, 0:08 Quote Post

I wouldn't call cutting in half wooden Eastern Orthodox churches and ripping them apart with trucks (filled with armed men) a "light policy"... "They that sow the wind, shall reap the whirlwind" - and that's exactly what happened.
 
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post 22/11/2014, 0:50 Quote Post

QUOTE(Paweł Gajtkowski @ 22/11/2014, 0:08)
I wouldn't call cutting in half wooden Eastern Orthodox churches and ripping them apart with trucks (filled with armed men) a "light policy"... "They that sow the wind, shall reap the whirlwind" - and that's exactly what happened.
*


Are you comparing things mentioned above to atrocities and genocide that happened in 1943?! Well, that really shows the whole discussion in good perspective...
 
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post 22/11/2014, 0:52 Quote Post

do kasacji.

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post 22/11/2014, 0:59 Quote Post

do kasacji...

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Alexander Malinowski2
 

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post 22/11/2014, 8:10 Quote Post

CODE
[Paweł Gajtkowski,22/11/2014, 1:08]

CODE
I wouldn't call cutting in half wooden Eastern Orthodox churches and ripping them apart with trucks (filled with armed men) a "light policy"... "


It was bad policy of persecutions of the Orthodox church. The reason for it was immaturity of Polish governing class, who wanted to settle the balance from the times of Tsardom religious persecutions by chose childish moves.

This was worse than being bad policy. It was mistake, to fight with Orthodox believers, who were not a menace of the time.

However, in 1938 all around Poland very bad things had happened. The consequences of Hlodomor, Kristall Nacht pogroms, Great Purge of Polish minority.

Comparable, the Polish policies were too violent to let people be satisfied and too weak to really break them.

CODE
They that sow the wind, shall reap the whirlwind" - and that's exactly what happened.


No, this was not a case.
First of all, instead of scientific reasoning you try to resolve to pseudo-religious reasoning. You shall start here with Armagedon and Judgement Day.

Unjust policies targeted weak and pour peasants, who reacted the same way, as always if you hit the people without the power. Resignation.

The Volhynia genocide had been carried out by the powerful Ukrainian political movement with center in Eastern Catholic areas of former Galicia, which raised to power by helping 3rd Reich to carry out Holocaust.
They might have used the 1938 events as ideological tool, but certainly the decisions were not influenced.
 
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post 22/11/2014, 9:25 Quote Post

I'm not a historian, and moreover I do not identify myself neither with the Polish nor the Ukrainian nations, although I was born and raised in (then) communist dominated Poland.
I'd already expressed my views in this topic, stating that the victims of the genocide weren't responsible for their miserable and unjustifiable faith, their torture, and their deaths, 'cause the whole responsibility for those heinous crimes lies in the hands and obviously in consciousness of their oppressors!

However such a statement is not being intended as my so called 'bottom line'.

I'm able to be somewhat impartial on the subject of not having, and more importantly, not feeling the emotional ballast associated with said events.
As to illustrate such a state of mind I'd like to mention the well known Armenian Genocide!
Such an event in the human history doesn't evoke any 'blood boiling' emotions among Poles, neither among the Ukrainian nation.
Understandably so! (No need to further explain such an emotional approach, or lack of it thereof).

However user Paweł Gajtowski scored a certain point stating, that in the 1938 the Poles weren't 'squeaky-clean' beforehand, obviously by rising down the objects of Ukrainian religious faith, and more importantly their religious identities, namely their tserkov buildings and other religious shrines (often under the pressure of extreme physical violence coming from the Polish police forces against potential objectors), which equals in my mind to the crime of trying to erase their national identity!!!

I have to admit a lack of personal historical knowledge in this particular subject matter, however I'm a little bit 'excused', because as I mentioned before, I'm not a historian and many events simply escape my mind. (Not to mention escaping my knowledge).

User Paweł Gajtowski provided certain link to support his thesis. I studied those essays presented there, and one of them had caught my eye.
http://www.cerkiew1938.pl/relacje_ani_guzika.html
The author, count Eustachy Świeżawski had mentioned in his very emotional essay, that 400 tserkov buildings were torn down under the enforcement of the Polish law, exersised by the local Polish authorities under the collar of the law, sometimes (and more often than not) under a pressure of the extreme physical violence against a local Ukrainian population!

Could somebody please, being a member of this forum and possessing a professional historical knowledge confirm the claims presented by count Eustachy Świeżawski in his short essay?

I've got to admit, that this particular post of Paweł Gajtowski became certain eye opener for me, allowing me to get a certain 'other perspective', and also allowing me to be able to get a more 'three-dimentional' perspective on a subject of the Polsh-Ukrainian problems in this particular period of time.
 
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post 22/11/2014, 9:57 Quote Post

CODE
[Phouty,22/11/2014, 10:25]


CODE
Could somebody please, being a member of  this forum and possessing a professional historical knowledge confirm the claims presented by count Eustachy Świeżawski in his short essay?


It has certainly happened, however this is not related to Bandera's Holocaust and should be discussed in separate thread.

CODE
which equals in my mind to the crime of trying to erase their [b]national identity[/b]!!!


Not really, rather religious identity. The people of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kholm_Governorate had a little national identity.

This was a new step in the religious war between Catholic faith and Orthodox Church, which started in 1595 with foundation of Uniate Church.

The Polish authorities wanted to take revenge for forcible conversion of Uniate parishes into Orthodox ones. The generations of persecutions ended with "Tolerance Ukaz" of Tsar after 1905 revolution, when one third of former Uniate population converted into Catholic faith.

Nevertheless, after 1917 revolution situation reverted: The Orthodox church no longer could have been perceived as hand of Tsardom government. However, Uniate Church of Galicia became associated with Ukrainian National movement and therefore with the enemies of the state.

From this perspective the action of 1938 seems as fighting the XIX-century war in XX-century.

Regarding the identities: people of northern part of Kholm province used to be assigned to Belorussian area. As Belorussians have overall weak national identity, nowadays some of the people identify themselves with Orthodox minority rather than with one of the "Eastern" national minorities.







 
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post 22/11/2014, 14:16 Quote Post

Let me rephrase biblical proverb, if it's too religious for You: "They that sow the seeds of ethnical and religious animosity, shall reap real trouble during future military conflicts".

As for national identity of people populating Kholm region during 30-ties - I can tell You that, Belarussians aside, ethnic groups were clearly recognizable. A farmer would say: "I've just bought this meadow from Ukrainians" or: "Let's go to Jew for a drink!", or: "Wow, these German settlers really know how to dry a wetland!"
 
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post 22/11/2014, 14:22 Quote Post

Are you so old to remember 1930-ties?

Can you list the commanders of UPA with origins in this particular region?


QUOTE(Paweł Gajtkowski @ 22/11/2014, 15:16)
As for national identity of people populating Kholm region during 30-ties - I can tell You that, Belarussians aside, ethnic groups were clearly recognizable. A farmer would say: "I've just bought this meadow from Ukrainians" or: "Let's go to Jew for a drink!", or: "Wow, these German settlers really know how to dry a wetland!"
*


 
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Paweł Gajtkowski
 

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post 22/11/2014, 18:57 Quote Post

My grandfather was old enough to see on his own eyes tserkov building being torn down by the Poles. Too bad I've learned about this from my father when it was too late to hear any detailed description from the eye-witness.

I'm not a historian, Alexander Malinowski2, but I have a feeling that you are. So, can you list the commanders of UPA that didn't knew about desacration of 400 (!) Eastern Orthodox churches?
 
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post 22/11/2014, 19:26 Quote Post

No, I am not historian, history is my hobby.

Kholm population were very loosely connected with UPA. Any explanation of genocide, based on retaliation on the Kholm wrongs, is completely baseless. This could have been only propaganda reasoning.

Anyway, your personal history is very interesting.

What I know, many Kholm people were "repatriated" to Eastern Ukraine in 1945, where they mostly starved to death.

I guess your father was deported by Germans and then left for Canada or other country of the West. Is it correct?

In mean time, the areas on Ukrainian side of the border and Polish side were ethnically cleansed, so now the ethnic border adheres to political border.

(Anyone who started ethical cleansing of Volhynia must have assumed a ricochet at Kholm. UPA simply believed it is worth price to pay.)
 
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