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> Always rich or constantly poor, Enabling factors
 
Which factor?
• cold climate [ 4 ]  [11.76%]
• environmental standards [ 2 ]  [5.88%]
• health [ 4 ]  [11.76%]
• gender equality [ 1 ]  [2.94%]
• height (e.g. the fact that Norwegian economy is so robust has been ascribed to the fact that the Norwegians are amongst the tallest people in Europe) [ 2 ]  [5.88%]
• demographic deficit [ 4 ]  [11.76%]
• religion – it’s apparently better to live in a predominantly Protestant than a Catholic state [ 9 ]  [26.47%]
• high level of literacy [ 6 ]  [17.65%]
• low inflation [ 2 ]  [5.88%]
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Donia
 

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post 29/08/2009, 19:49 Quote Post

QUOTE
Their educated labour force is a strong basis for future growth


Question is, whether this "educated labour force" will be willing to stay in their country to build its economy. I do not want to sound cynical, but, until now, many researchers, scientists etc. prefer to migrate to the USA or Europe and start their careers in these, "more scientifically developed" regions of the world. One has to admit that it is, actually, quite understandable - access to high technology, well equipped laboratories, higher living standards and payment - all these aspects of working there make Europe/ the USA more attractive for any educated Indian worker. I am inclined to think that India has to do something to stop the "brain drain" phenomenon, which, I believe, applies to its situation.
 
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Rothar
 

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post 29/08/2009, 22:09 Quote Post

QUOTE(Donia @ 29/08/2009, 20:49)
Question is, whether this "educated labour force" will be willing to stay in their country to build its economy.
*



It's a problem that touches all poorer countries in favour of most developed ones. This phenomenon is especially visible in the USA. Their scientific staff consists of people from all over the world - from Poland as well.

But on the other hand - after reading Friedman's "The World is flat" - where the author talked with many young people in India - I think that many of them won't move to America even if they have a chance for better living there, because of their need to be a part of their own society and need to stay close to the people from the same culture.

Even in our offices, in Poland, there are more and more people from India now. But they're not only working here for foreign corporations but also for their own national companies. Best example is Mittal Steel (now ArcelorMittal) - the biggest steel producer in the World and owner of most of Polish steel industry.

Summing up, I think this brain drain shouldn't be a strong barrier for India's development. You may loose some part of educated labour force but you won't ever build a strong economy without having them. And when the economy will grow and stabilise - they will more often stay in their country.
 
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Donia
 

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post 30/08/2009, 15:56 Quote Post

Well, that's certainly true, but I am afraid that Indian traditionalism, which was proved by Friedman in his book, is something at least subjective and vague - even the most sagacious sociologist/economist, if confronted with a young, Indian person claiming they don't want to leave their country, wouldn't be able to distinguish whether it is true or not. My point is, that even if students in India are profoundly convinced that what counts most is having contact with people whom they share cultural bonds with, it doesn't mean they wouldn't migrate to the USA, if that meant better living or education. What you say in public may not be equal to what you really think. Especially when it comes to the laws of economy.
 
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Hannibal B.
 

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post 23/09/2009, 21:02 Quote Post

QUOTE(krzystofer @ 17/08/2009, 20:47)
Be that as it may, why then comparable level of richness has not been achieved by other British colonies, e.g. India or Pakistan ?
I reckon India is usually mentioned as a state which administration so fluently adopted British procedures. However, its culture left much to be desired, if brought up to British efficiency standards.
*



That's what I was talkin' about previously, as a direct answer to your post rolleyes.gif but that's kool, I don't demand any sort of credits;)
 
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post 5/01/2010, 16:31 Quote Post

QUOTE(paulus @ 1/03/2009, 20:38)
Having over the last few years read a number of books on sociology, economics and risk management I have come across quite a range of different factors which scholars have seen as determining whether a given nation is rich or remains poor. Some of these 'findings', even those which raise your eyebrows, have been listed in the above survey. What do you think about these determinants? Do they reflect reality or should they be taken with a pinch of salt?
*



I don't buy into the idea that factors x,y,z are the formula for a country being rich or poor.

Another flaw of the approach you have presented is not taking into account the interaction between the above mentioned factors.

Yet another problem with the approach is the indirect (at best) influence of some of these factors.

Last but not least, political/military/scientific events are not taken into account.


QUOTE(Hannibal B. @ 19/07/2009, 4:29)
I'd opt for religion.

Look around - the biggest European economics and financial powers that be are mostly protestant (e.g the UK, all Scandinavian countries, Germany etc.). Their top - notch economics is determined directly by the religion; it actually encourages to hard work, in order to be granted with profits. Catholic religion relies more on God's goodwill and doesn't request such a lifestyle from the followers.


Well, in the XVI century, the two greatest European powers - Spain and The Polish Commomweath were Catholic.

As far as the present goes - Germany's richest regions such a Bavaria and Baden-Wirtuenberg are strongly Catholic. Countries such as France or Austria are theoretically Catholic. Ireland has had its boom in the last couple of years.

There is a significant difference between north and south Italy - both Catholic.

This just goes to show, that you are being very selective with the data, and that's just Western Europe we're talking about...


QUOTE(Hannibal B. @ 19/07/2009, 4:29)
Not speaking of the Muslim nations - their dogma is "Allah will give" and so the people do not see the need for working.


Apologies for possible mistakes - ain't that good with English yet wink.gif
*



confused1.gif Huh? So are the UAE or Kuwait not Muslim? No, your logic is just flawed, not to mention the sweeping gerenalizations rolleyes.gif

QUOTE(emigrant @ 19/07/2009, 4:37)
I would vote for a factor, that hasn't been mentioned above. And that is good laws and good tax system...
*



I would say you are light years closer to the anwser than the height/climate/everything else in the poll wink.gif

QUOTE(Net_Skater @ 25/07/2009, 18:59)
I was about to click "cold climate" ... It was very tempting but then back in my head voice said: how about Iceland and don't forget, more or less one third of Russia territory qualifies for "cold climate". Therefore this option is no too appealing.

N_S
*



I think that it might have been a factor for the early civilizations - in the warmest of climates there were weaker incentives for development. I don't think it matters now.


QUOTE(krzystofer @ 26/07/2009, 10:27)
Considering the location of countries with the highest GDP per capita, there are following relevant conclusions:
- predominantly Western Europe or states being the English colonies in the past, with culture thoroughly adapting values imported from UK or Western Europe(USA, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, Israel)
- Pacific coast of Asia - Japan, Taiwan, Southern Korea, Singapore. Richness owing lots to hard-working mentality, discipline and loyalty towards superiors

If one intends to derive economic development from climate conditions, the two mentioned areas should be considered, along with the way Western values influenced countries of the Far East.
*



Please explain - what values did exactly Israel adapted from Europe wink.gif But, all in all the "richness" is skewed towards a couple cultures for the most part, true.

QUOTE(krzystofer @ 17/08/2009, 12:47)
Be that as it may, why then comparable level of richness has not been achieved by other British colonies, e.g. India or Pakistan ?
I reckon India is usually mentioned as a state which administration so fluently adopted British procedures. However, its culture left much to be desired, if brought up to British efficiency standards.
*



Because the US, Australia, Canada etc. developed their own culture, very close to the European one in certain regards, whereas India and Pakistan has their own culture, which they have not abandoned. How about that for an explanation wink.gif ?

QUOTE(Rothar @ 29/08/2009, 15:09)
But on the other hand - after reading Friedman's "The World is flat" - where the author talked with many young people in India - I think that many of them won't move to America even if they have a chance for better living there, because of their need to be a part of their own society and need to stay close to the people from the same culture.


As interesting as some of Friedman's ideas are, I am somewhat reluctant to agree with him...
 
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krzystofer
 

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post 6/01/2010, 16:39 Quote Post

QUOTE(Wyrak)
Please explain - what values did exactly Israel adapted from Europe wink.gif But, all in all the "richness" is skewed towards a couple cultures for the most part, true.


The people who were responsibile for shaping modern Israel were Jews coming from either Europe or US. They were influenced by what they saw in countries they were born (as, for instance, David Ben Gurion). In terms of ethnicity, economy and politics, Israel is considered to be westernized country.
Furthermore, even the Israel Football Association is a member of UEFA.

QUOTE(Wyrak)
Because the US, Australia, Canada etc. developed their own culture, very close to the European one in certain regards, whereas India and Pakistan has their own culture, which they have not abandoned. How about that for an explanation wink.gif ?


Countries such as Canada, USA or Australia have their unique history. Their societies are result of various migrations, which left their indigineous people in minority.
Despite the significant flow of British soldiers, traders and clerks, general structure of India/Pakistani society has been hardly touched.
 
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Wyrak
 

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post 7/01/2010, 5:44 Quote Post

QUOTE(krzystofer @ 6/01/2010, 9:39)
The people who were responsibile for shaping modern Israel were Jews coming from either Europe or US. They were influenced by what they saw in countries they were born (as, for instance, David Ben Gurion). In terms of ethnicity, economy and politics, Israel is considered to be westernized country.


What has shaped Europe and the US? The civilization stemming out of Christianity... which as we all know has its roots in Judaism.

Although, after consideration, your opinion has a certain validity.

QUOTE(krzystofer @ 6/01/2010, 9:39)
Furthermore, even the Israel Football Association is a member of UEFA.


Oh, I am sorry, this settles the discussion then! Lol.

Turkey is also o member of UEFA. So Turkey is a westernized nation according to your logic? wink.gif Kazakhstan must be located in Europe, it's a member of the UEFA after all wink.gif

QUOTE(krzystofer @ 6/01/2010, 9:39)
Countries such as Canada, USA or Australia have their unique history. Their societies are result of various migrations, which left their indigineous people in minority.
Despite the significant flow of British soldiers, traders and clerks, general structure of India/Pakistani society has been hardly touched.
*



Of course their history is unique, but has a common denominator, which India and Pakistan do not share with them.
 
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krzystofer
 

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post 7/01/2010, 19:51 Quote Post

QUOTE(Wyrak)
What has shaped Europe and the US? The civilization stemming out of Christianity... which as we all know has its roots in Judaism.


Most of the western scholars pointed out other factors making the West go forward.

QUOTE(Wyrak)
Oh, I am sorry, this settles the discussion then! Lol.

Turkey is also o member of UEFA. So Turkey is a westernized nation according to your logic? wink.gif Kazakhstan must be located in Europe, it's a member of the UEFA after all wink.gif


It has been only used as one of a few arguments supporting my opinion about westernized character of modern Israel. Turkish and Kazakh membership in UEFA can only be viewed in terms of their political ambitions.
 
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Wyrak
 

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post 8/01/2010, 16:51 Quote Post

QUOTE
It has been only used as one of a few arguments supporting my opinion about westernized character of modern Israel. Turkish and Kazakh membership in UEFA can only be viewed in terms of their political ambitions.


Well, I have proven, it was a flawed argument.

------

I am not saying there were not other factors to the West's success.
 
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post 18/03/2010, 19:48 Quote Post

I voted for environmental standards due to theory of Jared Diamond.
 
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post 23/05/2010, 2:04 Quote Post

Very interesting issue.
First of all I'd like to know what exactly means: rich or poor? Are we talking about country or single citizens, it seems to be pretty important, as an artificial GDP doesn't say a thing about the way people live in this or that country: last year in top ten of the world were 2 muslim countries: Qatar and UAE. I know some people from UAE and they seem to be doing quite well!

We can only talk about the present situation, and nowadays probably the highest standard of life one get mostly in Western countries, though it seems to change slowly. I haven't noticed here mentioned countries like Malaysia or Indonesia, which again do quite well and are developing very fast.

I think that what triggered a rapid development of European economy was constant state of war on our continent and relatively small space: France and Spain together are just a bit bigger than present Egypt;)

China which actually was a leader in technology for centuries stopped developing when they conquered everything around: they just didn't need anything more. It wasn't the issue in Europe: small, highly populous countries with ambitious leaders just had to develop and it was actually science which let us led the world for a while, but it seems to be changing presently: countries like India, China, Turkey, AS, UAE, Brasil, Indonesia, Malaysia spend a fortune every year on education and science.

I would say that the main reason of Europe being presently wealthy is competitionand then education and science.
 
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post 23/05/2010, 9:48 Quote Post

I was surprised with this issue title. "Always" and "Constantly" doesn't seem to be proper words in a historian's mouth! In fact the only thing which is discussed here is only a present wealth and prosperity of different nations. Which is quite recent development and gives no premises of a stable picture with no prospect of change... In fact, it changes here and now. Probably this change itself is more interesting than reasons of status quo, as the change which is under way will determine the future of our children.
 
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post 23/05/2010, 10:12 Quote Post

QUOTE(jkobus @ 23/05/2010, 9:48)
I was surprised with this issue title. "Always" and "Constantly" doesn't seem to be proper words in a historian's mouth!


I'd rather threat it as a catchy phrase. The real essence of the topic is the subtitle. That's the field for the dicussion.
 
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post 25/05/2010, 9:58 Quote Post

I think ladies and gentleman here in their considerations of wealth and poverty are forgetting about macroeconomics’ factors such as money supply and level of economic freedom. According to Milton Friedman these factors are crucial to make nation or state rich.
 
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post 25/05/2010, 19:11 Quote Post

Macroeconomics derives a number of tools which are applied in some purposeful way. It has hardly something to do with the historical arguments behind a country's success.
To put it briefly, monetary policy is described in rather more short-run terms. Having said that, the long-term direction of particular monetary or fiscal actions is the absolutely necessary condition for economic stability.
 
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