| |
|
|
 Zaginięcie Malaysia Airlines (MAS) flight MH370, Co się wydarzyło?
| |
|
|
|
|
Niedawno widzialem ,,Katastrofe w przestworzach" odcinek, w którym wyrzucony pracy pilot przejął stery i zanurkował. Wszyscy zginęli.
Jeszcze inna historia to także nagły upadek egipskiego samolotu, prowadzonego przez pilota, który miał zostać wylany po powrocie.
Myśle że stąd biorą się podejrzenia celowej dzialalności pilota.
QUOTE Wyrzuceni z pracy piloci, latają potem samolotem w tej samej pracy? Tylko po to, żeby się rozbić zatopić? Logiczne...
/
To sa 2 różne historie. W perwszej znich były pilot poszedł do kabiny pilotów do swoich kolegów, a właściwie jednego, bo drugi poszedł odpocząć, obezwładnił go, przejął stery i zanurkował.
To oficjalny wynik sledztwa.
|
| |
|
|
| |
|
|
|
|
To jest bardzo, bardzo dziwna sprawa ...
Oto artykul z wczorajszego wydanie New York Times:
Series of Errors by Malaysia Mounts, Complicating the Task of Finding Flight 370
By KEITH BRADSHER and MICHAEL FORSYTHE MARCH 15, 2014
SEPANG, Malaysia — The radar blip that was Malaysia Airlines Flight 370 did a wide U-turn over the Gulf of Thailand and then began moving inexorably past at least three military radar arrays as it traversed northern Malaysia, even flying high over one of the country’s biggest cities before heading out over the Strait of Malacca.
Yet inside a Malaysian Air Force control room on the country’s west coast, where American-made F-18s and F-5 fighters stood at a high level of readiness for emergencies exactly like the one unfolding in the early morning of March 8, a four-person air defense radar crew did nothing about the unauthorized flight. “The watch team never noticed the blip,” said a person with detailed knowledge of the investigation into Flight 370. “It was as though the airspace was his.”
It was not the first and certainly not the last in a long series of errors by the Malaysian government that has made the geographically vast and technologically complex task of finding the $50 million Malaysia Airlines jet far more difficult.
A week after the plane disappeared, the trail is even colder as the search now sprawls from the snowy peaks of the Himalayas to the empty expanses of the southern Indian Ocean. Nobody knows yet whether the delays cost the lives of any of the 239 people who boarded the flight to Beijing at Kuala Lumpur’s ultramodern airport here. But the mistakes have accumulated at a remarkable pace.
“The fact that it flew straight over Malaysia, without the Malaysian military identifying it, is just plain weird — not just weird, but also very damning and tragic,” said David Learmount, the operations and safety editor for Flightglobal, a news and data service for the aviation sector.
Senior Malaysian military officers became aware within hours of the radar data once word spread that a civilian airliner had vanished. The Malaysian government nonetheless organized and oversaw an expensive and complex international search effort in the Gulf of Thailand that lasted for a full week. Only on Saturday morning did Prime Minister Najib Razak finally shut it down after admitting what had already been widely reported in the news media: Satellite data showed that the engines on the missing plane had continued to run for nearly six more hours after it left Malaysian airspace.
Finding the plane and figuring out what happened to it is now a far more daunting task than if the plane had been intercepted. If the aircraft ended up in the southern Indian Ocean, as some aviation experts now suggest, then floating debris could have subsequently drifted hundreds of miles, making it extremely hard to figure out where the cockpit voice and data recorders sank.
And because the recorders keep only the last two hours of cockpit conversation, even the aircraft’s recorders may hold few secrets.
With so much uncertainty about the flight, it is not yet possible to know whether any actions by the Malaysian government or military could have altered its fate. Responding to a storm of criticism, particularly from China, whose citizens made up two-thirds of the passengers, Mr. Najib took pains in a statement early Saturday afternoon to say that Malaysia had not concealed information, including military data.
“We have shared information in real time with authorities who have the necessary experience to interpret the data,” he said, reading aloud a statement in English at a news conference. “We have been working nonstop to assist the investigation, and we have put our national security second to the search for the missing plane.”
Malaysia Airlines issued a similarly defensive statement late Saturday afternoon. “Given the nature of the situation and its extreme sensitivity, it was critical that the raw satellite signals were verified and analyzed by the relevant authorities so that their significance could be properly understood,” the airline said. “This naturally took some time, during which we were unable to publicly confirm their existence.”
Aviation experts said that a trained pilot would be the most obvious person to have carried out a complicated scheme involving the plane. Yet for a week after the plane’s disappearance, Malaysian law enforcement authorities said that their investigation did not include searching the home of the pilot, Zaharie Ahmad Shah.
On Saturday afternoon, the police were seen entering the gated community where Mr. Zaharie was said to have lived, and Malaysian news media reported that they had searched his home. The police declined to comment, and it is not known whether the authorities made any effort to secure Mr. Zaharie’s home and prevent any destruction of evidence over the past week.
Mr. Najib said on Saturday that “the Malaysian authorities have refocused their investigation into the crew and passengers on board,” but Mr. Zaharie has not been accused of any wrongdoing. No information has been released yet on whether the homes of the co-pilot or flight attendants might be searched.
Even before the plane took off, Malaysian immigration officials had already allowed onto the plane at least two people using passports that had been logged into a global database as stolen, although there is no evidence that either person carrying a stolen passport was involved in diverting the plane.
A British Royal Air Force base in the colonial era, the Malaysian air force base at Butterworth sits on the mainland across from the island of Penang at the northern reaches of the Strait of Malacca. There, in the early morning hours of March 8, the four-person crew watching for intrusions into the country’s airspace either did not notice or failed to report a blip on their defensive radar and air traffic radar that was moving steadily across the country from east to west, heading right toward them, said the person with knowledge of the matter.
Neither that team nor the crews at two other radar installations at Kota Bharu, closer to where the airliner last had contact with the ground, designated the blip as an unknown intruder warranting attention, the person said. The aircraft proceeded to fly across the country and out to sea without anyone on watch telling a superior and alerting the national defense command near Kuala Lumpur, even though the radar contact’s flight path did not correspond to any filed flight plan.
As a result, combat aircraft never scrambled to investigate. The plane, identified at the time by Mr. Najib as Flight 370, passed directly over Penang, a largely urban state with more than 1.6 million people, then turned and headed out over the Strait of Malacca.
The existence of the radar contact was discovered only when military officials began reviewing tapes later in the morning on March 8, after the passenger jet failed to arrive in Beijing. It was already becoming clear that morning, only hours after the unauthorized flyover, that something had gone very wrong. Tapes from both the Butterworth and Kota Bharu bases showed the radar contact arriving from the area of the last known position of Flight 370, the person familiar with the investigation said.
Gen. Rodzali Daud, the commander of Malaysia’s Air Force, publicly acknowledged the existence of the radar signals for the first time on Wednesday, well into the fifth day after the plane’s disappearance. He emphasized that further analysis was necessary because the radar plots of the aircraft’s location were stripped of the identifying information given by the plane’s onboard transponders, which someone aboard the aircraft appeared to have turned off.
The failure to identify Flight 370’s errant course meant that a chance to send military aircraft to identify and redirect the jet, a Boeing 777, was lost. And for five days the crews on an armada of search vessels, including two American warships, focused the bulk of their attention in the waters off Malaysia’s east coast, far from the plane’s actual path.
General Rodzali went to the Butterworth air force base the day that the plane disappeared and was told of the radar blips, the person familiar with the investigation said. The Malaysian government nonetheless assigned most of its search and rescue resources, as well as ships and aircraft offered by other nations, to a search of the Gulf of Thailand where the aircraft’s satellite transponder was turned off, while allocating minimal attention to the Strait of Malacca on the other, western side of Peninsular Malaysia.
Chris Buckley contributed reporting from Sepang, Nicola Clark from Paris, and Matthew L. Wald from Washington.
1. Na pokladzie znajdowaly sie dwie osoby ze sfalszowanymi paszportami. Jakim cudem przeszly przez kontrole i dostaly sie na poklad samolotu ?
2. 8 marca, czterech operatorow dyzurujacych w stacji radarowej malajskich sil powietrznych w Butterworth nie zauwazylo wzglednie nie zaraportowalo, ze na ekranie radaru znajduje sie niezidentyfikowany poruszajacy sie obiekt, niezarejestrowany w harmonogramie lotow. To samo z personelem dwoch stacji radarowych w Kota Baru. Niezidentyfikowany samolot przelecial przez kraj i nikt nie powiadomil dowodztwo obrony narodowej w Kuala Lumpur. Informacja o tym szokujacym zachowaniu zostala ujawniona przez dowodce malajskich sil powietrznych w piec dni po wydarzeniu !
3. Wedlug opinii ekspertow, wszystkie dzialania ktore spowodowaly wylaczenie samolotowego markera wskazujacego pozycje samolotu, mogly byc podjete przez osobe dobrze znajaca procedure, urzadzenia i samolot. Osobe posiadajaca wiedze pilota. A dopiero tydzien po zniknieciu samolotu wladze przeszukaly mieszkanie pierwszego pilota Zaharie Ahmad Shah i drugiego pilota Fariq Abdul Hamid.
4. Jesli samolot zostal uprowadzony, to gdzie mialby frunac ? Jesli uprowadzony, to przez kogo ?
|
| |
|
|
| |
|
|
|
|
Moim zdaniem, jeśli naprawdę było tam złoto, to w zasadzie wszystko mamy jasne. Grupa przestępcza, do której należy ktoś z załogi przejmuje kontrolę nad samolotem. Zmienia jego kurs i albo lądują na wodzie, albo próbują lądować na jakimś zapomnianym przez ludzi i Boga lotnisku w Azji Południowo-Wschodniej. I teraz są dwie opcje:
- Samolot wylądował. Pasażerowie albo zostali zabici, albo gdzieś uwięzieni. Być może w akcję był zaangażowany jakiś skorumpowany generał lub inny wysoki przedstawiciel władzy z Birmy, Chin,Wietnamu lub innego kraju i dlatego nikt ni nie wie.
-Coś poszło nie tak- bunt pasażerów jak w locie 93 z września 2001, kłótnia o łupy, strzelanina, piloci tracą kontrolę nad samolotem, spada do Oceanu Indyjskiego, a nikt nic nie znalazł, bo przez tydzień szukali w innym miejscu.
|
| |
|
|
| |
|
|
|
|
Nie wiem tylko czy to Amerykanom podkradziono tych naukowców, czy Amerykanie komuś podkradli. Złoto to pic na wodę.
QUOTE To jest bardzo, bardzo dziwna sprawa ... Dziwność polega na tym, że wojsko niektórych państw i niektóre służby specjalne mają technologię wykraczającą poza to, co znane jest powszechnie cywilom. Potem się dzieją rzeczy, których zwykli ludzie nie rozumieją bo się technicznie szczegóły nie zgadzają. A tymczasem mogą się nie zgadzać jedynie pozornie.
|
| |
|
|
| |
|
|
|
|
Dzisiejsza informacja agencji prasowej http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/03/17/...EA2701720140317
Australia leads southern search for missing Malaysian plane
(Reuters) - Australia will lead a search of the remote southern Indian Ocean for a missing Malaysian jet liner, its prime minister said on Monday, amid mounting evidence the plane's disappearance was a meticulously planned act of sabotage or hijacking.
No trace of Malaysia Airlines Flight MH370 has been found since it vanished on March 8 with 239 people aboard. Investigators are increasingly convinced it was diverted perhaps thousands of miles off course by someone with deep knowledge of the Boeing 777-200ER and commercial navigation.
Suspicions of hijacking or sabotage hardened further after it was confirmed the last radio message from the cockpit - an informal "all right, good night" - was spoken after someone had begun disabling one of the plane's automatic tracking systems.
But police and a multi-national investigation team may never know for sure what happened aboard the jetliner unless they find the plane, and that in itself is a daunting challenge.
Satellite data suggests the plane could be anywhere in either of two vast arcs: one stretching from northern Thailand to the borders of Kazakhstan and Turkmenistan, or a southern arc from Indonesia into the Indian Ocean west of Australia.
Australian Prime Minister Tony Abbott said he had spoken to Malaysian counterpart Najib Razak by telephone, and had offered more surveillance resources in addition to the two Orion aircraft his country has already committed.
"He asked that Australia take responsibility for the search in the southern vector, which the Malaysian authorities now think was one possible flight path for this ill-fated aircraft," Abbott told parliament. "I agreed that we would do so."
FOCUS ON CREW
The plane's disappearance has baffled investigators and aviation experts. It disappeared from civilian air traffic control screens off Malaysia's east coast less than an hour after taking off from Kuala Lumpur en route to Beijing.
Malaysian authorities believe that, as the plane crossed the northeast coast and flew across the Gulf of Thailand, someone on board shut off its communications systems and turned sharply to the west.
That has focused attention on the crew. Malaysian police are trawling through the backgrounds of the pilots, flight and ground staff for any clues to a possible motive in what they say is now being treated as a criminal investigation.
The last words from the cockpit of the missing plane were spoken as it was leaving Malaysian-run airspace and being handed over to air traffic controllers in Vietnam.
The sign-off came after one of the plane's data communication systems, which would have enabled it to be tracked beyond radar coverage, had been switched off, Malaysia's Acting Transport Minister Hishammuddin Hussein said on Sunday.
"The answer to your question is yes, it was disabled before," he told reporters when asked if the ACARS system - a maintenance computer that relays data on the plane's status - had been shut down before the "all right, good night" sign-off.
It is not known who on board spoke those words, which were first revealed last week.
The informal hand-off went against standard radio procedures, which would have called for him to read back instructions for contacting the next control centre and include the aircraft's call sign, said Hugh Dibley, a former British Airways pilot and a Fellow of the Royal Aeronautical Society.
Investigators are likely to examine the recording for any signs of psychological stress and to determine the speaker's identity to confirm whether the flight deck had been taken over by hijackers or the pilot himself was involved, he said.
HOMES SEARCHED
Police special branch officers searched the homes of the captain, 53-year-old Zaharie Ahmad Shah, and first officer, 27-year-old Fariq Abdul Hamid, in middle-class suburbs of Kuala Lumpur close to the international airport on Saturday.
Among the items taken for examination was a flight simulator Zaharie had built in his home.
A senior police official familiar with the investigation said the flight simulator programs were closely examined, adding they appeared to be normal ones that allow users to practice flying and landing in different conditions.
A second senior police official with knowledge of the investigation said they had found no evidence of a link between the pilot and any militant group.
"Based on what we have so far, we cannot see the terrorism link here," he said. "We looked at known terror or extremist groups in Southeast Asia, the links are not there."
Background checks are also being made on the 227 passengers on the flight, including aviation engineer Mohd Khairul Amri Selamat, a 29-year-old Malaysian who worked for a private jet charter company.
"The focus is on anyone else who might have had aviation skills on that plane," the second police source told Reuters.
As an engineer specializing in executive jets, Khairul would not necessarily have all the knowledge needed to divert and fly a large jetliner.
NORTH OR SOUTH?
Electronic signals the plane continued to exchange periodically with satellites suggest it could have continued flying for nearly seven hours after moving out of range of Malaysian military radar off the northwest coast, following a commercial aviation route across the Andaman Sea towards India.
The plane had enough fuel to fly for a total of about seven-and-a-half to eight hours, Malaysia Airlines' Chief Executive Ahmad Jauhari Yahya said on Sunday.
Twenty-six countries are involved in the search, stretching from the shores of the Caspian Sea to the far south of the Indian Ocean.
A source familiar with official U.S. assessments of satellite data being used to try and find the plane said it was believed most likely it turned south sometime after the last sighting by Malaysian military radar, and may have run out of fuel over the Indian Ocean.
The Malaysian government-controlled New Straits Times on Monday quoted sources close to the investigation as saying data collected was pointing instead towards the northern corridor.
Investigators were also looking at disused airfields in the region with runways capable of handling a large passenger aircraft such as the Boeing 777, the paper said.
The New Straits Times also said that the plane dropped to an altitude of 5,000 ft or lower, using a low-flying technique known as "terrain masking" to defeat civilian radar coverage after turning back from its scheduled flight path.
(Additional reporting by Niluksi Koswanage, Anshuman Daga, Al-Zaquan Amer Hamzah, Stuart Grudgings and Anuradha Raghu in Kuala Lumpur, Mark Hosenball in Washington, Sanjib Kumar Roy and Nita Bhalla in Port Blair, India, Sruthi Gottipati in Visakhapatnam, India, Frank Jack Daniel and Douglas Busvine in New Delhi; Writing by Alex Richardson; Editing by Paul Tait)
Artykul nformuje m. innymi, ze Australia zaangazuje wiecej srodkow do przeszukania wschodnio poludniowej strefy oceanu Indyjskiego. Wladze Malazji sprawdzaja i gromadza informacje o czlonkach zalogi Boeinga. Samolot mial paliwa wystarczajaco na siedem i pol godzin lotu i dochodzenie zaklada, ze tyle czasu byl w powietrzu. Jest jednak zastanawiajace w jaki sposob duzy samolot pasazerski moglby fruwac przez tyle czasu i nikt nie zwracal na to uwagi mimo, ze lacznosc ziemia-samolot zostala przerwana, cywilne i wojskowe radary wskazywaly, ze samolot w poczatkowej godzinie lotu kompletnie zboczyl z kursu, ktos/cos wylaczylo markery pozycji na pokladzie samolotu, ze jesli samolot pofrunal na polnocny zachod to wchodzil na tertytoria najezone radarami obrony plot Chin, Thailand, Myamar, Indii, Pakistanu; jesli samolot pofrunal na poludniowy zachod, to wtedy frunalby mniej swiecej rownolegle do zachodniego wybrzeza Australii - i nie byloby to zarejestrowane ??
|
| |
|
|
| |
|
|
|
|
QUOTE(Net_Skater @ 17/03/2014, 9:22) jesli samolot pofrunal na poludniowy zachod, to wtedy frunalby mniej swiecej rownolegle do zachodniego wybrzeza Australii - i nie byloby to zarejestrowane ??
Jeśli leciał rejestrowany i obserwowany w po za "oficjanym zasięgiem" radarów wojskowych to na bank wojskowi będą siedzieć cicho.
|
| |
|
|
| |
|
|
|
|
Danielp:
zakladam, ze Boeing frunal na poludniowy zachod, czyli mniej wiecej wzdluz zachodniego brzegu Australii.
Zakladam, ze przez dobrych pare godzin Boeing frunal z dala od rozkladowej trasy, i to mocno z dala - istny "niezidentyfikowany obiekt latajacy".
Zakladam, ze obrona powietrzna Australii traktuje swe obowiazki bardziej powaznie niz tamci z roznych stacji radarowych w Malazji.
Zakladam, ze Australia posiada i stosuje nowoczesny system dalekiego ostrzegania czyli cos co sprawdza przestrzen powietrzna na wiele setek km/mil od linii wybrzeza.
Zakladam, ze o ile operatywnosc sil opl w roznych mniejszych krajach azjatyckich moze przypominac Disneyland, to w Australii do tych spraw podchodzi sie w powazny i profesjonalny sposob.
Pytanie: z jakiego to powodu Australia mialaby siedziec cicho ? Coz takiego jest tak wielka tajemnica, ze wstrzymuje udzielenie informacji (oczywiscie zakladajac, ze takie informacje istnieja) ?
|
| |
|
|
| |
|
|
|
|
No a co z pasażerami? Żaden nie zauważył ze kurs się zmienił? Nie wysłał SMSa do bliskich ze zostali porwani? Albo ze samolot gwałtownie(?) zniża pułap? Mocno tajemnicza sprawa...
|
| |
|
|
| |
|
|
|
|
CODE a co z pasażerami? Żaden nie zauważył ze kurs się zmienił? Nie wysłał SMSa do bliskich ze zostali porwani? Albo ze samolot gwałtownie(?) zniża pułap?
Może tam, gdzie to się działo, nie było zasięgu. Może porywacze kazali pasażerom oddać telefony.
|
| |
|
|
| |
|
|
|
|
QUOTE Może tam, gdzie to się działo, nie było zasięgu.
GPS pokrywa cala kule ziemska z tego co wiem. Kazdy ( choć tu pewności nie mam bo nie znam wszystkich modeli każdej firmy ) smartfon ma taka opcje. Bardziej mnie zastanawia czy smartfony przełączone na tryb samolotowy można odłączyć od sieci z kabiny pilota?
QUOTE Może porywacze kazali pasażerom oddać telefony.
To już prędzej. Ale ilu musiałoby być tych porywaczy? I jak szybko mogli pozbierać telefony? Ktos chyba by zdążył wystukać trzy litery SOS i nacisnąć - wyślij? I czym sterroryzowali by pasażerów? przecież nie spojrzeniem? Jak wnieśli bron na pokład?. Po 11-9 strasznie zaostrzono kontrole na lotniskach..
Duzo niejasności..
|
| |
|
|
| |
|
|
|
|
"GPS pokrywa cala kule ziemska z tego co wiem. Kazdy ( choć tu pewności nie mam bo nie znam wszystkich modeli każdej firmy ) smartfon ma taka opcje" Smartfon ( i to każdy ) ma funkcję nadawania do satelity? To po co telefony satelitarne, GPS to jedynie odbiornik.
|
| |
|
|
| |
|
|
|
|
QUOTE(Net_Skater @ 17/03/2014, 10:54) Danielp:
zakladam, ze Boeing frunal na poludniowy zachod, czyli mniej wiecej wzdluz zachodniego brzegu Australii.
Zakladam, ze przez dobrych pare godzin Boeing frunal z dala od rozkladowej trasy, i to mocno z dala - istny "niezidentyfikowany obiekt latajacy".
Zakladam, ze obrona powietrzna Australii traktuje swe obowiazki bardziej powaznie niz tamci z roznych stacji radarowych w Malazji.
Zakladam, ze Australia posiada i stosuje nowoczesny system dalekiego ostrzegania czyli cos co sprawdza przestrzen powietrzna na wiele setek km/mil od linii wybrzeza.
Zakladam, ze o ile operatywnosc sil opl w roznych mniejszych krajach azjatyckich moze przypominac Disneyland, to w Australii do tych spraw podchodzi sie w powazny i profesjonalny sposob.
Pytanie: z jakiego to powodu Australia mialaby siedziec cicho ? Coz takiego jest tak wielka tajemnica, ze wstrzymuje udzielenie informacji (oczywiscie zakladajac, ze takie informacje istnieja) ?
Jak dziś funkcjonują tzw "bare base" RAAF czy JORN (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jindalee_over-the-horizon_radar. )- płn zachodnia Austrialia to pustynia
.
Interesujący głos w sprawie zaginięcia MH370 (od ok 36 min) - Raport o stanie świata z 15.03.2014 - ciekawy wywiad z B Głowackim dziennikarzem Skrzydlatej Polski
http://www.polskieradio.pl/9/Audycja/7473 (warto posłuchać bo można dowiedzieć się od której godziny można niezauważanie dla wojska wlecieć nad Szwajcarię )
Ten post był edytowany przez Danielp: 17/03/2014, 20:09
|
| |
|
|
| |
|
|
|
|
Wprawdzie nie dotyczy bezpośrednio lotu MH370, ale zamieszczam linka do podglądu światowego ruchu lotniczego w realnym czasie. Mapkę można powiększać i uaktualnia się ona sama co kilkadziesiąt sekund. Można też kliknąć na poszczególne sylwetki samolotów, ażeby uzyskać numer lotu.
http://www.flightradar24.com/#42.28,-13.59...525086252272642
Mnie osobiście, to ta mapka przypomina mrówki w pobliżu dużego mrowiska.
Gęstość światowego ruchu lotniczego jest imponująca i trudna do wyobrażenia dla przeciętnego zjadacza chleba.
|
| |
|
|
| |
|
|
|
|
Zapodam link do forum profesjonalnych pilotów. Tam ten temat cieszy się olbrzymią popularnością.Juz podchodzi pod 280 stron.
Jako że są to fachowcy to dyskusja też jest fachowa i pełna ... technicznego żargonu (ciężkiego do zrozumienia dla laika)
Jak komuś sie chce przez to przedzierać to tu jest Link
I małe info :
Quote:
"We informed Malaysia on the day we lost contact with the flight that we noticed the flight turned back west but Malaysia did not respond,"
That is Vietnam’s deputy minister of transport, Pham Quy Tieu, and the quote was reported at least 4 days ago
(as can be seen here Vietnam suspends air search for missing Malaysian jet | NDTV.com )
So that means
1. Vietnam has the plane on radar turning around, and tried to tell Malaysia that day
2. Malaysia knew they had it on their radar at 2:40 in the Straights anyway
...yet still they let 14 countries waste 8 days in the Gulf looking for a plane that wasn't ever there.
Ten post był edytowany przez dawid2009: 17/03/2014, 21:32
|
| |
|
|
| |
|
|
|
|
Podany link jest rewelacyjny.
W pelni profesjonalne podejscie do sprawy, bez legend, plotek itp.
Jesli ktos chce sledzic rozwoj wydarzenia, to tylko tam.
|
| |
|
|
1 Użytkowników czyta ten temat (1 Gości i 0 Anonimowych użytkowników)
0 Zarejestrowanych:
Śledź ten temat
Dostarczaj powiadomienie na email, gdy w tym temacie dodano odpowiedź, a ty nie jesteś online na forum.
Subskrybuj to forum
Dostarczaj powiadomienie na email, gdy w tym forum tworzony jest nowy temat, a ty nie jesteś online na forum.
Ściągnij / Wydrukuj ten temat
Pobierz ten temat w innym formacie lub zobacz wersję 'do druku'.
|
|
|
|
|
historycy.org > Historia powszechna > ŚWIAT PO ZIMNEJ WOJNIE; XXI WIEK > Świat po zimnej wojnie ogólnie
16/03/2014, 19:56
